Happy Millionare

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The best way to fail at pitching

Where you live massively impacts your happiness. Jay & Rupy give discuss which parameters are important for long term wellbeing.

Jay explains how to win him over in a pitch, what he’s focusing on in his life coaching sessions, and how he makes 30-50% returns a year on the stock market.


02:45 – Where you live = how happy you are

15:05 – The Marshmallow test & why it’s relevant to entrepreneurs

23:19 – How to listen better – clue, It’s not how you’ve been taught!

29:11 – Is life coaching worth it?

34:41 – The Stockdale Paradox

38:30 – What is pigeon shitting? and how can you stop doing it?!



And now just got like peace and quiet. I'm looking after nutmeg little puppy and, uh, doing this. So I'm, uh, I'm looking forward to chatting, man. They've got, I've got quite a few things that I wanna talk to you about, but, um, I'll give you an update on the business and everything, but how.


Um, I'm just, uh, a bit jokes. If they all come back while we're recording the podcast, like get like 20 women running into go going on jokes.


You still got it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no. Looking forward to the chat as well, mate. I think there's a, we're gonna cover probably. A few topics today. I definitely wanna stick some curve balls in for you and for us. So


Bunch of my friends are from America. And then you flew all the way from Bali. You, you, uh, you pulled the longest trip. That was, that was amazing.


But you know, if you are just going there to check it out just as a holiday, it is it's stunning. It's incredible. It's like the best way to describe it is like a mix of like Thailand meets like Columbia. You've got the peaceful, exact part of, um, let's say Thailand, the beaches, and then you've got this like crazy energy vibe coming from like Columbia.

It's just like this unbelievable mix. And. . Yeah, honestly, it was probably one of the best places I've ever visited. Like, it was one of those places where you went there and you went, wow. Okay. Do you know what I could actually live here?


Yeah, it's true. It's true. You're like, okay. But I did actually, like, I could foresee myself like staying there for a window of my life, like a chapter, like, you know, whether it's. Six months, year two. Okay. Yeah. Like not forever, but like now you could see yourself having an incredible life there. That's something I definitely wanna chat to you about later as well.

All right. So let's talk about it now. Yeah. Look, I think where you live is a big, big part of your happiness, right? This is the happy millionaire podcast. And you know, even like Neal's family has said where you live determines a big, big part of your happiness. So yeah, I feel let's, let's dive


We live in the central of London. Rochelle works in central where cuz I can work wherever. Apart from when I'm doing clinical work, I can generally do my podcast, the tech stuff. My speaking events are generally like either virtual or I make the special effort to go in, uh, to do that. So I can, I mean, when I was in Australia earlier this year, I was literally working from.

My future mother-in-law's desk. So I, I can generally work anywhere, but there are loads of, you know, trade offs, I guess, from, you know, depending on where you wanna actually be located. Well, what do you think?


And I think the big decision for me is just. You know, where don't wanna live for a long period of like the long chapter. Right. And that's probably when you first have kids and you wanna go through schooling and that, cause I think that window's probably like 15 years, 10, 15 years, right? Yeah. If you look at data or if you just look at friends, like there's that big window where you live in a property and you are somewhere and you really build a family and.

I love your life in that area. And I think that's the period. It feels like you are coming toward, so


I like to have a park near me that I can go to. Like, I have like loads of things that. Feel that, uh, I need to have sort of built into my life and I, and for some people that sounds super boring. They're a bit more nomadic. They wanna like, you know, pick up the bags and go somewhere new every three months.

That's just like, not me. And also I think when you have kids in the equation, You can live that nomad lifestyle, but there are trade offs in terms of like, you know, you have to put a lot more effort into homeschooling or like just researching, like where they're gonna have the best education opportunities, which is important for me.

And the other thing is like how much space you actually want and how much you're willing to invest in that. So living in the centre of London, unless you can afford a house like 1.5, 2 million plus. It ain't gonna happen in terms of like having a amount of space unless you wanna go further outside, but then you trade off like your commute mm-hmm

So I know it's, it's a bit of a tough one because as an entrepreneur, a term that I'm like getting used to calling myself, it's easier for me to do what I wanna do on a day to day basis than it is my partner who is tied to a job where she has to be present in the office and all the rest of it. I don't know.

I don't know. Like, I, I mean, you, you make the choice to live in central of London.


Yeah. So for me like central London, is it just makes sense. Weirdly, there's no one suburb that I've fallen in love with, or like even further out, like, some people love like Essex or like hamster, or like, you know, some area like north London or even like Redding or Sur, whatever. It's like, I just haven't fallen in love with any of those areas.

Like maybe in the future, I do wanna be near my parents. Like I do, you know, as they. You know, as I get older, I do want to be at least like 45 minutes to our away from them and their basic Essex. Like that would be, I think that is important. Um, but at the same time, I think it all depends a lot with your partner, right?

Like in your case with Rochelle, you know, you're very lucky and blessed that you can work from anywhere. Whereas obviously Rochelle isn't. So I think the one thing I have noticed are the people that have moved further. Yeah, their property is much bigger. It's much more spacious. And like, you know, they are living that amazing suburb life, but they, they don't really socialize that much.

They claim they will when they'll hold, like these hold, these parties and stuff, but they don't like, I've watched them a lot. I've watched a lot, my friends' family. Like they're like, yeah, yeah, we're gonna go further out. And everyone's, I'm gonna invite everyone. And like, honestly, like they don't, they don't exactly we did.

And then they regret it. Um, so I've seen that happen as well. I think you gotta ask yourself for you. Actually, one is people that will make an effort. Cause a lot, these people that go out actually don't make much effort in the third before, and now they think they will when they go out. But of course they're not.

So I think that's an interesting pattern I've realized.


Like, I, I think it should always be like a, a sort of like organized, fun, uh, visit where, like they're not they're involved, but not too involved because you know, Indian parents, they can definitely be a bit overbearing. Um, second. You're close enough to your friends where you can just have like a random meetup, like you can call me and be like, oh, let's meet up in the park or let's go for lunch or whatever.

Uh, you wanna be within walking distance to your favourite coffee store? I think that's really important, which is why for me, even though you can get like a big mansion in the middle of like Lancaster, That's not attractive to me because I wanna be able to go out and like, see other people and like, you know, converse or take my dog out and all that rest of it.

And the other thing that I wanna make sure that we've built into our life is the opportunity to go and spend at least one to two months, uh, in Australia to, to make sure like, you know, Rochelle is getting time to see her family and her parents she's made that decision to stay in London. And that's, there's a trade off there, but like I've got friends in Australia to live there, you know, work there for like two years.

I've got like a real connection with Australia. And so I wanna have to build that in somehow. Um, and she, she can work from the offices there actually I'm already like forward thinking, like to try and make this a reality. Um, but yeah, I mean, what would yours be like if you, if you had a country that you could lay your roots down, where, where would that be?


Periods of being away. And so that bug in me, or that that need is no is not as strong, but however, like if there is this, um, like I can see myself being one, two years, um, somewhere for a period, but I can't see it being in the long term. I just, honestly, I do love London. So I think I'll always come back here.

Um, but I can see myself doing these small chapters. I dunno, I've got this weird picture of like being there. Um, Hyde park or Regents park and staying in like one of those presents or somewhere. I dunno, I can see myself being there, but I can see myself doing that because I'm quite sociable. I like hosting events or meeting up with people so I can see myself doing that.

And then also, you know, the big question is like, do you rent or buy? And like, when do you buy? And, um, you know, my view on that is just that I think that house where, or that period where you are saying that 10, 15 years, I think that's the moment you buy. And one of the silly mistakes I made, I think it's silly is I.

but I've bought, I own two flats and I'm selling them both. I'm in the process, a very sold one Neely Neely, whoever was listening. Please can just sign the papers and go over there. um, but yeah, the, the other one I'm in the process setting, like honestly like me holding these properties, like yes, you make rental money and all that sort of stuff, but the stress of holding flats, I don't think in my mind, I think when this era where in the old days, like they are holding properties, you've got this amazing rental income and I dunno, I just don't think it.

It is good now. And I don't, I don't enjoy managing properties.


And then just like build on top of that. And I think that's sort of like been a common thread through success stories, particularly within our C. Over the last, like few decades that were sort of, you know, but putting down roots in, in the UK and abroad as well. But I hear a lot of tech bros, like you talking about why you should be renting and actually putting your capital in, you know, across different sort of, uh, asset classes beyond.

Property. What, why is that? Cause I, I I'm like, no, I wanna save up, wanna get mortgage and then like, you know, put my roots down here and then like, if I, if I wanna move, then I just put the house up. I, I guess it's, you know, it's not as easy as just clicking a button and moving across your assets. So why, why do you like people in tech particularly have an aversion to buying, buying property and renting?



Like the appreciation, maybe like 5% a year and you might get some rental income if you rent it, which is gonna be like three, 4%. So let's say you own a property that's, you know, half a million. Right. And you make 3%, you're making like 15,000 pounds, but you've just like deposited a good chunk of your money.

So like, I. The question I ask is that they're gonna carry on owning that flat and then go buy another house. Are you gonna need to sell that flat to then buy your bigger house? But then that whole period of you buying and then selling, like you're paying stamp duty, you're gonna go through that stress of selling and yes, you save probably a little bit of money on rent, cuz you are paying for the mortgage instead of paying for the rent.

And yes, you may be saving some, but like the amount of headache you're going through. You know, and then the second question, the other part is like, can you make a better return on your money somewhere else? And, and this again is a personal situation where like, we are all experiencing different areas.

Like mine is tech. And I do understand the stock market cuz I've had a short space in finance. So I get, I spent, you know, I had a few years in fact, so I get the stock market and I. Um, the tech side. Um, and right now I can get very good return for my money. I can probably make 30 to 50% a year on. So if I have a hundred thousand pounds, I reckon I could turn that to 130 to 150,000 pounds.

Right. I'm very lucky cuz I've got the experience, right? I've built it up. I'm not, didn't just come, but I, so therefore I can get a better return with my money. In my tech investments or my stock investments versus, um, the house. However, the house is a safe bet. So what I'm doing is more risky. So


I'm the, I'm the opposite. I'm like, I'm probably more risk averse saying that. I'm probably less risk averse than most of my colleagues in like medicine or like traditional sort of professional jobs because yeah. I'm throwing the dice, uh, so to speak and starting a tech company, but I'm probably more risk averse than you because that's, to me sounds like super risky.

Like, I, I, I, I would much rather just, you. Give it to a wealth manager or like put it in a bank even though back. I mean, yeah, it's, it is a bit difficult position right now with inflation, so high, but for me, a safer be is like buy property somewhere around or just outside London. It's gonna appreciate over a 10, 20 year period anyway.

And I can just sort of forget about it. Yeah. I don't think we're gonna get a point where it's gonna ever go below what the selling price was, but sounds like you've got a lot more. You're bullish on like your, uh, abilities to convert CA cash.


Let's hire, let's say you bought a flat for half a million pounds, right? Um, in four years time, you now wanna buy a house and most likely you wanna buy something. That's really nice. Right? You wanna go up right? Most likely you don't wanna go down. You don't wanna be flat. You wanna buy something bigger, right.

Mm-hmm and you also buy something bigger. You're gonna obviously have to put a bigger deposit, right? Therefore most likely to buy the best house. Cuz one thing I've learned from all my friends, who've got like houses where it's small. They said, I wish I got something a bit bigger because they realize, wow, this is a 15 year like period.

And so most likely to have the cash to build that bigger house, you're gonna have to sell your initial flat. So. One other point to just make this even more complex. Yeah. Is that you probably wanna say in, you probably wanna say in a flat, which is nicer than the one you can buy. There's probably a good chance that might happen as well.

So therefore you're in this, like, you know, I've seen most of my friends who buy it, like stay in these flats, which they're like, yeah, all I'll do up and they spend a year doing it up or whatever. And it's like, yeah, it's okay with, they could just paid a bit more like a bit more through rent, but like they're now staying in something that they're happier with.

And you know, those four years they're


So, basically the reason why I came across this is because it's relevant to our discussion right now, but I think it's also relevant in sort of my space of, of like health and wellbeing and, and all the rest of it. And actually the impact of investing in our psychological skills and our sort of like self-improvement, um, as it pertains to like physical wellbeing, but anyway, like long story short in the sixties, There was this guy called water Mitchell or some, something like that.

He's not a boy waterman. So, at Stanford, where they do a lot of behavioural psychology experiments and all this kind of stuff, they've got a whole bunch of kids and they, uh, they put them in this room. Uh, and they gave them these marshmallows, like one each, right? And they would say, here's a marshmallow, I'll leave the room.

I'm gonna come back in like 10 minutes. If you don't eat the marshmallow, I'm gonna give you two marshmallows, two marshmallows and they leave the room. And then some of the kids are like, Fuck this I'm just gonna eat the marshmallow, eat the marshmallow. And then other kids are able to delay gratification with the expectation that you know what I'm gonna get two marshmallows in the future and what they found.

They've followed up these, these kids, and they've done this like a repeated number of times, they found that those people who are able to delay gratification have better life outcomes. So they, they measured their like grades in school, their educational attainment. Even things like weight, like BMI and, and other sort of life measures of like, you know, how happy they are in contentment and stuff.

And this brings me onto a nice fact, because what you are saying is sort of, maybe you could argue it's the antithesis of that because. You are saying that like right now I can afford to rent a much nicer place that I'm in at this point in time. Uh, you know, if I'm spending four and a half 5k month, let's say in London, I can get like a nice, like three bed apartment.

It's close to a park or whatever, whatever. Or I can like rent something a lot smaller, save up such that I can buy a place that I. Or I can like rent something better in the future. I, I'm not sure, but like this whole sort of process of delayed gratification, something I'm trying to sort of infuse into my life on a day to day basis, because I think it's a really, really important thing.

What do you, what do you think


Like there was a period for two years where I made no money. Right. I was, I went back to go live with my parents. Yeah. You know, I left



And then it went up to 40 50 and eventually got to an okay amount. Right. But the only time I made my serious money in the last, um, let's say the. eight years, right. Was actually when I sold some of my shares in my company, but I missed out for the last eight years. Like I didn't make much good salary, like, so if you had to benchmark, so if we did two lives, right, you've got the corporate life, like, and those of my friends were on the corporate side over the eight year period.

Yes. They made very good sums of money. Um, but actually if you look at it now, it's like, it's a different story, right? Yeah. Yeah. You could say I'm lucky as well though, but there's also a bit of luck because maybe, you know, I'm lucky to have got an exit, but I did foresee this happening though. I did. I, I knew that I would not I'd suffer from a money perspective for seven, eight years, but I knew there would be this moment where, um, if I love what I do and I go for it, I'll make money.

Yeah. I just knew I would. So I think that in my, in my mind, that is a marshal. I went through


And I'm not like, you know, trying to boast on, on, on the Porter over, but even from the point of starting doctor's kitchen, my podcast, uh, alone. Satisfy a, a, a good sort of six figure sum salary every single year. On top of that, adding my books as well. You know, that's another six figure, uh, a year salary on top of that, like the corporate gigs and all the rest of it, you know, that's, that's a, a good, like decent amount of wealth for one person to have with minimal team.

So it's, it's actually like not a bad lifestyle, but what I've done is put all of that money, pay myself pits over the last few years. I mean, the podcast took, got a while to get to that point, you know, was three years without making a single penny. I'm putting all that capital into my tech company, not paying myself anything.

And so I've, I'm in the process of constantly delaying gratification. I'm not like a Porter or anything. I'm not sleeping on the streets, but you know, I I'm delaying and taking a massive personal risk by putting everything into my tech company, building it from scratch, bootstrapping it to the point where now, you know, we're still not profitable, but I'm pushing a big rock that I've made myself up.

I have that sort of like confidence in myself. I think that's really important as well that you can actually achieve it, but still it's, everything's a massive gamble that you've done. And that I've just had an epiphany, as you were talking about it, now that I'm kind of like currently doing, you know,


Like let's quit another category. Yeah. Maybe bigger or smaller. I don't know, but you're coming, you're joining the tech category. Um, or I guess I am, and yeah, so you're basically restarting. I feel that if you deliver what you plan to do, which I know you will, in the tech space, it's bigger than the others.

So you've rolled the dye. Like, you know, I think it's rolling the die and I think it's just like relationships, right? Yeah. Like I've seen people go into relationships with certain people where they're good. Like they're good people to go be, be in a relationship and even potentially married. Cuz you know, they may find a, find a way for it to work, but.

You could argue, you could argue that they, if they'd waited, they could have found someone.


Yeah. Uh, and if you sort of delay too long, It's like, well, you're gonna be end up with nothing. So there's like that fine balance that everyone's trying to, to curate of like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna delay it just enough, such that I get the win that I'm happy with. Yeah. And I think it is also about like what actually makes you happy because for a lot people having a nice salary with a consistent income, doing something that you love is a fantastic outcome.

And you have to sort of like measure it against, okay, what's actually gonna make you happy. What, what actually do you want to achieve? And actually, are you doing this out of ego or are you doing out of like a genuine sort of passion to create, you know, health and wellbeing for people like inspire people?

What, whatever your, your ambitions are. I've had to sort of, sort of like, think about that a lot myself in this whole journey. Yeah.


You might have the, let's have a kid game. You know, you've got here to kind of the best relationship game. There's so many like games to play in life. And I think for the last eight, nine years, I definitely went all in on, you know, the career game and yeah, I'm super satisfied in that space. And I, it is like my passion and I'll continue it, but, you know, I think life's about playing the different games.

Right. And I think for. This is like starting the podcast. You know, I've been



What, what have you got on your list? There's like, you know, one topic that I've really dug deep in. Right. Um, so at the moment, um, Getting basically lots of people pitching to my brother and me for investments. Right. So for context's sake, my brother and me, we've now invested in like 30 different businesses.

And I love the process. Like I love, you know, meeting these founders and they're pitching to me. And what I've realized is that some of the conversations is great. Like, you know, I love it. And then honestly, there's a big number where like, honestly, it's just not enjoyable. Like I just don't enjoy the process.

Okay. Sometimes maybe the idea's not good and you know, therefore I may have lost interest, but most of the ideas that come to me are through referrals. So, you know, people that I really respect in the community have, you know, sent me these people. So they're usually vetted deals. They're usually quite good deals, but so I've been trying to work out like what what's been happening in these conversations.

Like why, why are they not that, why am I not that engaged or excited? And honestly, the light bulb moment hit me probably like a few months ago. And I realized. What was happening was I was speaking to these people. I was asking them questions like these founders and what I realize is they weren't answering my questions.

And I sounds so obvious, but they just like, I'd ask a question and they'll just be talking about something else. And


And then they came back to this one, but like, you know, they've just like lost my engagement for five, 10 minutes. It's like they had this story already planned in their head. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that they wanted to just release. Whereas, I just like, Hey, let's talk about this one. Like why this one? Right. But they talk me about like two or three of the other ones, which are totally unrelated.

Right. It's like, you know, they're trying to maybe create, um, a product on, um, like health meals. Right. But then they're like, they're now talking about how they were creating like advertising business and something else. Like they're totally unrelated. And I'm just like, God, man, like, you know, just ask a simple question or like, you know how much you're looking to raise and they'll be.

They just go off on some random topic and I'm just like, just tell me how much you look to raise dude. Yeah. Like, and what it comes down to is that when you are listening, you're trying to find for things that maybe you agree with that person or disagree, or you've got stuff on your mind and you just wanna release it.

Right. And. The actual ability to listen from humans is what I discovered this period is not very good. Um, and it's both for men and women. Right. But I can tell you one thing, women were better for sure. Yeah. Yeah. and sometimes you even see it with friends, right? Like you, you chain some friends and they're just like, Not there.

Like they're not really listening. Right. And, um, for us guys, like women always say that we're not very good at dying. And like, you know, it's like, we have this like walk around this like gold medal or some tattoo on our head saying shit, listener like us men. But like, you know, it's something I've been like quite fascinated about.

It's like what I thought. Okay. What makes a black belt listener? Like what, what, what, what, what makes someone great at listening? So I've just got really fascinated with this subject. So I've been like delving in over the last few months and I just went on a massive mission to like read and research, speak to people.

Um, I, I sometimes had these little mini projects and I like disappear for a few days and I'm just like Googling and listening to videos. And I found some really interesting. Yeah, go on. Tell


So like with me, Listening to me, which is maybe generating some thoughts and you're listening to yourself and you're listening to me as like, you're a bit confused, which one should I speak about? So like, we're going through this massive like, cycle and also on the internet by there's a lot of crap on like how to be a good listener, like, you know, empathetic, like all the classic stuff.

You're like, Hey, we got two ears, one mouth, like, you know, all this like boring stuff. I'm not boring. But's just like, Hey, like this is like, dude, like, come on. It's pretty gimme the good stuff. Right? Yeah. I finally found something. There's this guy. Um, YSU, which is this, um, Chinese monk or just a spiritual teacher, like, and he's just a really deep dude.

And he said something that to me was quite profound. The best listeners don't listen with their ears. They listen with their eyes and their heart. And then there is so the best listeners are just feeling with their eyes and their heart, what the other person is saying. And what that is is you're basically now.

Like really trying to be them you're feel by feeling their energy. You can feel their emotion, you can feel like their heart. And then the words, which are the ears. And what he said was that listening is not just about the ears. It's a full experience. Like listening is not, you listen to my words, it's listening to my energy, my emotions, like how I'm feeling.

Um, like, and that's more important than the words. and it's, it's the opposite of what we're being taught. Cause everyone goes, Hey, you know, you've got two ears, one mouth, like, listen with your ears. But listening is not, it's more about the feeling first and then the word and really it's quite hard cause I've been trained to listen to my ears.

Like I'm listening to words all the time. I don't know. It's only when that person said that, listen with your eyes and heart. It all started to make sense because showing empathy is like you being that. what happens is to be that person. You have to be them and to be them, you've got to feel the energy and emotion.

So that's first and then the word. So it was the first light bulb moment for me to go. Okay. Wow. Like that's what real listening. And that's what like life coaches do. That's what, like you, you know, they just like, they take that space. They're feeling it. So do you have a life coach? Yeah, I do. Um, I've had one for.

Like probably the last four years, the person



I, I, I haven't had a life coach. I've already had a business.


And we really just talk about some of the key things that are in my life and it's probably around just how I'm feeling in life. Like some things that I've learned maybe over the last two weeks. Um, we'll talk a bit, maybe. Some challenges may be at work relationships. So right now, like I'm single. So I've, you know, I've come out relationship and I'm single.

So I'm like, you know, therefore I'm going through obviously different emotions through that journey. So we talk a bit about that. So it's really topics that are on my mind and it's just a way for me to like, release it. Like the, the goal of a life coach is to create. or like using their heartened eyes to feel me and let release that emotion out of me.

It's just like, it's all of this, like blocked up energy in us. We just need to release it out. And that's what the life coach does is cleansing me to hopefully, so I can be more pure, um, for the world. That's how I look at it. Cause I'm dirty. It's cleansing of us. Yeah. Yeah.


Uh, that's cool, man. I didn't know that I had no idea. Yeah. So


How am I gonna, you know, uh, ensure that, uh, it's, everything is aligned with what I wanna build, you know, my sort of focus as you know, like whenever we're chatting on the phone is okay, what are the next steps for me? What, how, how do I ensure that I I'm gonna achieve my goals? Uh, and so that's why I'm sort of like on the superficial edge, I feel like I'm kind of aligned, like I, as a result of my job, I get to speak to some incredible minds and incredible people who always talk about alignment.

And I feel that alignment, but you're right, man. I should probably get like some sessions where I speak to a life coach, just so I can actually dive a bit. I'm pretty. I feel like I don't bullshit myself. Hmm. I, I feel that if I know that, uh, I'm saying something with my mouth, but in my head and my heart, I'm feeling something different.

I can call myself out about it and it doesn't get so far down the road where I'm like in a position where I, I feel like I can't get out of it or I feel stuck. And I think that sort of, um, mismatch between, uh, what people really want and what they're doing. Like, I, I feel like I don't have. So maybe I've never felt the need for a life coach in that respect, but maybe there's a bit of arrogance around there.

Like how much can a life coach actually help me? I'm sure they could.


I'm hoping everyone's probably tried a personal trainer session. Right? It's like, sometimes you don't realize there's other levels. So life coach will push you, or just like in, in a, in a very gentle way, making you think a bit more about your decisions to maybe dream bigger or to maybe change, like, you know, question some of your thoughts, because sometimes we say things which.

Actually may not be the right thing and they might be blatantly obvious to someone else. But to us, it may not be one thing. For example, for me, which I'm happy to share is like on like dating, right? Like I felt like I've got a lot to offer someone and we went through like, you know, all those different areas.

What I wasn't factoring enough on, no matter what I bring a relationship, whoever I meet, it's a two way thing. Right? Like fine. I might bring a lot. They might not care. Like what I've got may not be right for them. It's like a, it's a two-way decision. I have to pick them and they have to pick me. And like the moments, if like, for example, someone didn't pick me, I would get like, really like emotional.

I'd be like, huh, what's going on? Like what's. And like, cause we all in, you know, in our own lens, we all think we're great. Right. But you know, the moment we. Get someone that maybe doesn't like us and we can't figure it out. We start trying to put logic into it. Like life is logical. Like I was trying to make logic out of an illogical situation.

Right? Mm it's. Like in goals there's like finite finite goals. Like a finite goal would be like, Hey, okay. You are now in a relationship. You're, you've, you've made that goal, but is it also in finite? One is like, Hey, like, is this part of the right one for me? Or is this like, there is no right answer. Um, , it was only when he started questioning.

He's like, Hey, like you're talking a lot about what you bring, like, have you thought, like they may not. What you've got like, it sounds so simple, but it's just like, they make you look in the lens of the other person a bit more. We sometimes like get in our own little world where like, you know, you think on top of the world, everything's all perfect.

Everything's all good. But like, Hey, it was logical. Like it might not work out. And like, it just gives you another view and plus they hold you accountable. So sometimes I say stuff on the session and then like next week I go in, I'm like, promise something. I'm like, oh shit, he's gonna catch me out, please.

Don't I'm like


I know a lot about the exercises for me. It's more about implementation giving myself the time to implement them. So have you heard of the Stockdale paradox? It's like a. It's fairly well known, I think more in us, but so Stockdale this guy, he was a, a Vietnam prisoner of war and he was locked up in this like infamous prison.

I don't wanna it's too much jail, but like, he. Badly brutally sort of torture. Right? Probably got a whole bunch of like metals and stuff when he came back. But the stock their paradox is a technique where you're not dosing your reality with toxic positivity. You're not just saying, oh, everything's hunky Dori.

Like, you know, I'm very happy and I'm like, I'm grateful with the experience you'll confronting the brutal reality. This is fucking shit, but you have this faith that you will prevail in the end. Like, you know, there, there is going to be. Uh, a good ending to your story. It's shit right now. But you know, at some point in the future, I have faith that is gonna improve.

I think this kind of became popular during the pandemic where people were turning more to like stoicism, like, you know, I know Ryan holiday's book, the daily STO became like a bestseller on Amazon, even though it's like written a few years ago, you know, a lot of people started reading meditations. Like even I picked up meditations for like the second time when I started reading a lot about.

But I, I think as it pertains to this podcast, in terms of like entrepreneurs and, and, you know, happiness and stuff, Paul Graham, is this, this famous saying about like startups being, uh, the same as being punched and repeatedly in the face, but working in a corporate is, is like being waterboarded. I don't fully agree with the, the statement, but the, but the, the premise of it being like a very hard struggle on a day to day basis where you are full of like indecision and self doubt and all that kind of.

It's sort of relevant to, to, to our discussions on the day to day basis. So I'm aware of all these different concepts. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I'm like, I'd rather like spend an hour or an hour and a half with myself and actually try and imbue and infuse these sort of like these perspectives into my day to day, rather than like have another conversation with, I think it's probably room for both.

I, I get it, you know, the, the, the benefit of having a life coach. It for me, it's like, okay. I know a lot about these exercises. Part of my job is to talk to other people about these sort of themes. And in reality, what I need to do is sit with myself and, and try and like paint these into my day to day and just remind myself of, yes, you might be going through struggle with your business, or you might be, uh, suffering indecision or self doubt, but, you know, good things are gonna happen in the end.

You've gotta like really manifest. I mean, you manifest a lot. We talked about it on the previous spot, right? Like, like manifesting you, you believe in all that kind of stuff, right? No, no, definitely. And, um, look,


Right. And maybe this is not that moment for you. You gotta ask it cuz your heart are your ego. Right. That's the big question. Like the heart, but it sounds like it's your heart from probably the best like, you know, cause ego might be a bit afraid. Yeah. The ego might be a bit phrase like, Ooh, someone else gonna start listening to your thoughts.

Like, you know, that that voice stops coming. So. it's a personal thing. Right? So you're someone that is proactively trying to get better. And there's some things that, you know, you want to fix. Um, for me, I look at life coach, like, you know, it's every two weeks, it might be every month. I don't use it to learn new techniques.

It's more as a check-in it's like someone who's like making sure that I am. you know, operating in from the right place. Cuz sometimes I may go off track. I just need, cause I don't one thing also why I think life coach is good is like, this is going a bit raw bang of you. I'm just gonna say out there, right?

Like, you know, like you sometimes have people who just like, you know, you do checkin say, Hey, how you doing? Next thing you know? Like they just literally just go from what. And it's just like, literally bam, bam, bam. You're like, whoa, whoa. I just like, just checking if you're right, man, I didn't like this.

Wasn't supposed to be like a therapy life coach session. I call it pigeon shiting like, so basically like just walking in life and you're like, Hey, how you doing? And suddenly, or like, you know, your friend suddenly calls in and it's like, bam, bam, bam, bam, BA bam. I'm like, oh, I just literally finished my fear.

I didn't expect all this shit to land on my face. Um, so like for me, the life coach actually stops me from pigeoning. Um, hoping I don't do that to any of my friends and to anyone like. That's why things like journaling are very good. Cause you can just release. You know, the good and the bad thoughts on a piece of paper.

Um, and that's why things like you get meditation, whatever you wanna do, but like just relax and ease. The mind is great. And for me, the life coach is another, it's just another method to make me feel more calm and more peaceful and stop me from pigeon shitting. So. Um, that should be put of self pitch for a life coach position


Um, how to stop pigeon shitting. Yeah, I see a blog post man. That's a, that's a good one. yeah. Um, Amit, why don't you give us your, like what, what are your highlights? What life changing takeaways can you take from this conversation? Yeah. Yeah. uh,


He's like the opposite, because most of the time when we're taught to listen as being silent and waiting for your turn to talk, and Jay's actually the master of this, when you, when you see him in a business meeting, you often think he's not even listening. He'll be like checking his phone or on something.

Uh, and really. Then he'll say something. You're like, fuck, he really, really listens. So it, it is like the opposite. Most people are acting like they're listening, but they're not actually listening with their heart. Whereas you don't even need to look like you're listening. But if it's hitting


Do you know what? Thanks that my man,


The faith that will improve. I'm just wondering, how does, uh, how do you balance that with affirmations? Cause when I think of affirmations as like everything's positive and then, uh, how do you balance that with sometimes, you know, you're going


Because sometimes when you're in the, she, I mean, let me speak like pretty frankly here. Life's good. Right? Like life is very good. Um, generally speaking, when I think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, Uh, and just generally where I am in my life and where it has been over the last, like, you know what, every single year of my life, I would say, I can always look back on with positivity because I practice gratitude.

But the affirmations are a reminder for me of like, okay, what the end goal looks like, such that when you're going through a stressful day, which are, you know, most days you're gonna have some stresses, whether it's an employee, whether it's indecision, whether it's, you know, oh, we didn't get this contract or.

Uh, oh, I didn't get enough likes on social media, even stupid shit that I, I, I don't want to admit to myself, let alone other people that actually, you know, does rock my day. It's just a reminder of that end goal. So to use the extreme example that Stockdale had. Was his reality was like being tortured like every other day.

It, where my affirmations fit in this sort of analogy is he's reminder to himself was whatever the the endpoint is, it's going to get better. And so the affirmations for me serve as that reminder is like, things are gonna get better. That that's how I fit it into my day. Awesome. Uh, and then the last


I've never thought that I would need a life coach, but then I was just thinking actually, I'm sure friend externally will look at me and be like, okay, he's making those mistakes or there's something he's not seeing, but you can, you can see that in all of your friends and, um, yeah, probably like a life coach.

Like you can't tickle yourself. There's things that you're gonna be blind to. And having that impartial observer will be good or something


basically Ru stop, stop picking yourself up. You need to get a life coach. Yeah, sit yourself down. You dunno everything.


We should talk about that in the next episode. Uh, definitely on another


It was like, oh shit.


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